Episode Description
In this episode of the Profits on Purpose podcast, host Nate Littlewood speaks with StJohn Wiles, co-founder and president of the Bison Company. They discuss the evolution of Bison from a distribution model to a brand-focused company, the challenges faced during COVID-19, and the importance of building trust in business relationships. StJohn shares insights on scaling the brand, navigating supply chain decisions, and defining success in business, emphasizing the balance between financial growth and purpose-driven entrepreneurship.
Key Takeaways
- Bison Company started as a distribution model before transitioning to brand ownership.
- COVID-19 presented significant challenges, impacting supply and demand.
- Trust in business relationships is crucial for success.
- Scaling a brand requires understanding market dynamics and competition.
- First-time founders often focus on product, while second-time founders prioritize distribution.
- Supply chain decisions can greatly affect business operations and quality control.
- Building strong supplier relationships can lead to better outcomes.
- Financial vulnerabilities can slow down growth for bootstrapped companies.
- Defining success evolves from financial metrics to purpose-driven goals.
- Listening to suppliers can provide valuable insights and improve product quality.
See More from Stjohn and The Bison Company
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Transcript
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00:00 Introduction
01:07 The Evolution of the Bison Company
03:57 Transitioning from Distribution to Brand Ownership
11:30 Lessons Learned from Trust and Contracts
13:21 Scaling the Bison Brand
19:48 Navigating Supply Chain Challenges
25:56 Building Relationships with Suppliers
27:55 Building Trust Through Strategic Partnerships
29:11 The Importance of Listening to Partners
31:28 Quality Control and Workforce Dynamics
35:38 Navigating Financial Vulnerabilities
41:05 The Bootstrap vs. Fundraising Dilemma
44:11 Evolving Definitions of Success
46:40 Memorable Moments in Business Growth
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Nate (00:06)
Welcome to the Profits on Purpose podcast where we explore the journeys of purpose driven e-commerce founders and the financial strategies that have helped them thrive. Discover how their values have fueled success and how smart decisions have turned impact into income. I'm your host, Nate Littlewood, and thank you for tuning in.
Today's episode, I'm joined by Stjohn Wiles, who is the co-founder and president of the Bison Company. Stjohn, welcome to the channel. It's great to have you here.
Stjohn Wiles (00:41)
Thanks, Nate. Great to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Nate (00:47)
Likewise, likewise. I thought a good place for us to get started is, you know, just set the stage and provide a little context here. Could you tell us what the Bison company actually does and maybe touch on the different business models that you've been involved with over the years?
Stjohn Wiles (01:07)
For sure. Well, yeah. I mean, what we're doing today is definitely not how we started out. But, know, today in the moment, we're manufacturing an invention that was homegrown here within our company under the brand Bison. It's called the Bison Company. And we've zeroed in and made our focus all about helping people light fires more easily,
whether it's campfires or fireplaces or charcoal barbecues. So we feel like we have a special purpose and mission in that, which we can dig into if you would like. But it's definitely not how we got started. Our journey really began after I read The Four Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss, don't know if you read that too.
Nate (02:02)
Yeah.
Stjohn Wiles (02:05)
Great book, lots of nuggets in there. I can't say I followed Tim's formula to a T, but I certainly read it while doing a sales job for an IT company, and it led me to come to Sweden, where I found working with that company remotely to be very difficult. We started what we, you know, we started
going back to what I used to do prior to that, was launching new products, new technology, and putting them in the marketplace. So we put together a distribution company where we negotiated contracts with European brands, and then we introduced them to the US market. This is 15 years ago, so the world's a little bit easier to operate in now for those brands.
But at the time, it was difficult journey to dissect how to enter the US market, how to do it with the liabilities and all the things that scare foreigners. So we were very successful at doing that, but did find ourselves transitioning over time into our own brand and our own products.
Nate (03:20)
Got it, got it. So just to clarify, there's been, I guess, two separate chapters here. Initially, you were basically a distribution company helping European brands who wanted to enter into or expand into the US market. Is that business or part of the business still around today or is that completely ceased?
Stjohn Wiles (03:42)
No, we've completely walked away from that. We now only focus on the development of our own products and bring those to market.
Nate (03:57)
Okay, interesting. So you've seen this, you know, the consumer products and sales, you know, industry over from a number of different perspectives and over a fairly long time period. I understand you've been at this for 15 years or so now. Let me ask you this, if you could relive any one of those past 15 years, which year would it be and why?
Stjohn Wiles (04:27)
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. You know, and it asks really, would you lean into the great moments or would you avoid the pain? Right? And I think the pain always exceeds the joy. So frankly, if I could go back in time, it would be...
the sort of the six months heading into COVID. Okay. Where if I'm sitting here now with the hindsight of what was to come, there definitely would have been some different decisions that we would have made. But we didn't have that clarity at the time. So you just have to roll with it. But it did lead to a particularly difficult couple years that we were to face and we didn't know that that was coming. So...
we were actually on a, we had great momentum with our brand at the time. And so when COVID hit, demand was through the roof, but our ability to supply crashed. And that became very, very, very difficult to navigate. And then you start making decisions that you think are correct, but end up by teaching you a lesson.
Nate (05:56)
Absolutely. think, yeah, there was so many hard, expensive, stressful lessons that a lot of us in the e-com space learned through that period. I certainly want to come back to them because I think you have some really good stories to share and insights to tell. But before we get there, I just want to go back a little bit to the distributor model, which is where you started off.
I understand that you had a few situations and relationships that essentially prompted you to get out of that line of business. Based on our previous conversation, you mentioned that there were a few specific examples where you decided that this was not a great fit and you didn't want to continue it. I'd love to hear one or two of those stories. What was it about that way of doing business and...
working with these European brands and helping them build in the US, like why didn't it work out and why is that something that you're no longer continuing today?
Stjohn Wiles (07:02)
Well, fundamentally we had no IP of any sort, whether it the business model or the products and the trademarks and patents around them that belonged to us. So we were vulnerable and in a funny situation whereby you kind of had to be good but not too good.
So you wanted to produce enough sales where the brand would stay with you, but not so much that they would start looking at the market as something that they should take over directly. So the model required you to kind of dance on this very, very delicate line. We didn't
play that dance very well because when opportunity strikes, and even if it's not your brand and your product, hey, you lean into it. You don't turn sales down. You don't reject customers that want to buy and that you know you can satisfy. So these things kind of develop a momentum of their own at a certain point. Then it's at that moment
actually like the fear factor kind of kicks in and you know, you know, you're to get a phone call from that brand at some, some stage saying they've either sold the company because they're doing so well or, you know, or they want to install their own, you know, sales team because they can afford it now and take the extra margin. And, know, it all, it all makes logical sense. So it's really more of a flaw to our own, you know, the model that we, had at the time.
And I was probably a little bit too loose on agreements and holding things together illegally. I leaned into goodwill and trust rather than caging people.
Nate (09:06)
I see. Okay. Interesting. So it sounds like there's quite a bizarre incentive structure with a deal like that in that you can't do a bad job because then you would lose the customer entirely, but you also can't do a really, really good job because the customer is going to want to do it themselves and they would hire someone to replace you. So you kind of incentivized for mediocrity. Is that a fair way to put it or?
Stjohn Wiles (09:36)
Look, it's there for sure, but if the product's really good and the brand is going well, it does take a life of its own, right? So it's not something you can actually, you think you can control it, but you can't. I think, look, not all these, the people behind the brands is really important, right?
So some of these companies really stand up and they do the right thing and they communicate and they're like, hey, you're doing a great job. We have to make this decision for X, Y, and Z reason. And you kind of understand. And sometimes they invite you into their fold and you just choose to stay independent. And so it's not always our way or the highway. Sometimes there's dialogue. But then there are companies that,
that lean into greed and maybe short-term wins and then...
In those situations, it's really best that everyone kind of moves on from each other anyway. Because when those kinds of emotions start coming, they're very hard to recover from. And it's really just in everyone's best interest at that stage to let the brand have their brand and move on with their lives and just don't look back.
Nate (11:02)
Yeah, I see. Yeah. Okay. It sounds like you learned some valuable lessons about reliance on trust versus reliance on contracts. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? How do you, how is your way of doing business today different from what it might've been 10 or 15 years ago?
Stjohn Wiles (11:30)
Yeah, for sure. Well, obviously when you own your own brand, we've protected the IP with trademarks and patents, both design patents and utility patents. You do what you can. I don't know if there's, I don't think there's anything out there that's bulletproof as far as protection goes. But when we talk about trust,
you know, honestly, it's something that I kind of always start with. You know, I'm going into this podcast with the trust that, you know, we're going to have a good conversation. We don't, don't know where it's going. So, but I, you know, I try to lean into all, all business relationships with, with trust and that fortunately hasn't changed. Having said that, if you're going to put up, you know, decent cash to help a brand that you actually have no ownership, no IP in, et cetera.,
then maybe I'd be a little bit more cautious about that next time, mainly in protecting the upside if things work out. The downside if it's not working, it's usually not working for anybody if it's not working. So it's kind of easy to walk away from those situations. It's when the money's rolling and there's something, the pie is getting bigger, that's where you want to make sure you're not left out of the equation.
Nate (12:58)
Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Gotcha. So tell me about the, your own brand, the Bison company. What are some of the things that have worked over the years in terms of scaling and growing that? And what are the things that have absolutely not worked for you in terms of growing that side of the business?
Stjohn Wiles (13:21)
Sure. It's a good question.
We obviously haven't scaled yet to the point we want to. So you're still searching for the flywheel. But we are finding success in more traditional bricks and mortar establishments. And I think when you're going to market with any new product, whether it's Bison or one of the other brands that we've helped in the past, you fish in a few different ponds and you start looking for where
the opportunity seems to be striking and it's not always the same, right? You do develop a better knowledge base of where to go and where to start and so maybe you waste less time by the time you've done it a few times. But you never know for sure that something's gonna work, right?
So in the case of Bison, found some early success with independent small retailers and we leaned into that and we did quite well. And this is pre-COVID. But it is very slow build. So although you can do well, you also have to say, look, when you're looking at your competitors in the fire space are
huge, doing billion dollars in sales, and then there's you, you know, trying to get started. You're like, you do realize that there's a, the game is actually being played, you know, on a larger field. And you're kind of dancing on the side, kind of getting away with something that's niche. But you also know that eventually they're either gonna catch on to what you're doing and take, you know, try to take you down, or they're gonna acquire you.
Or you're going to have to just get on, you know, get onto the big boys field and meet them head on in the marketplace and play where the game is being played. I find, you know, we're at that stage now where we're looking to, you know, to increase the exposure of our brand so more people know about, you know, who we are and what we do and why it's actually relevant in our opinion to
you know, at least 50 % of households. Whereas if you asked our competitors at the moment, they'd probably think we're a niche item that's not gonna get there.
Nate (15:59)
Okay, interesting, interesting. I'm not sure if you've ever heard the expression or saying, but I've heard people say that first time founders tend to focus more on product and second time founders tend to focus more on distribution. As a guy who started off spending more time focusing on sales and is now more focused on product, what are your thoughts on that?
Stjohn Wiles (16:28)
Yeah, great question. Well, you when you're selling on someone else's product, you don't really need to focus on product. That's their job. Right. So they develop the brand, they do the quality control. You know, they're in charge of the manufacturing processes, getting everything delivered on time. Your job is to have the conversations in the marketplace that are appropriate for that brand and get it out there. And so the difficulty that
I guess I probably underestimated, if I'm to be honest, when we built Bison, was underestimating. I mean, you always look at someone else's job as the easy job. They looked at my job of distributing and selling as being the easy job while they do the hard work of manufacturing. And I kind of like, you just press a button and out pops a product. It's not really quite as simple as that. So you definitely start developing a little bit of a...
empathy for the other side and what they're going through. So now I have to do it all, right? Like we're going all the way from manufacturing and we're doing our own selling and distribution. And that's been a big transition for us. I don't actually remember your question, but I hope I answered it there somewhere.
Nate (17:49)
You did, you did. was asking about, you know, first time founders focusing on product, second time founders, they say, focus more on distribution. I just, yeah, yeah, I you'd have an interesting perspective.
Stjohn Wiles (18:02)
So like if I look at what we're doing now, it started with, let's try to make the product as well, good as possible because we need word of mouth on our side. You know, we know we don't have deep pockets for marketing. If we, if we don't deliver, we're dead in the water. So we definitely started and it took a lot longer than I thought to, to flush out a product that, that you can build at scale. And,
and, but now that we're there, you know, the temptation is we already know what, you know, the second and third, you know, products from here, you know, look like, but we're leaning into the sales side. You know, we need to, need the distribution. We need that side of the business. Now it's really important to focus on that. So that's, that's this year's objective.
Nate (18:56)
Got it, got it. Okay, that makes sense. You mentioned just now about how manufacturing and supply chain is actually a lot more complicated than just pressing a button and boom, a product comes out. A lot of people in the e-comm space at the moment are taking a lot of time to look at their supply chains, things like tariffs and rising costs and many, drivers are obviously forcing people who are getting
product manufactured to reevaluate how they're doing that. I understand that there was a point a little while back where you actually moved your supply chain from China to Vietnam. Can you tell us like when was that? Why did you do it? And what did you learn through that whole process?
Stjohn Wiles (19:48)
Sure. Well, the first time Trump was in office, he raised duties then, right? So this isn't, you know, what's happening now. We kind of lived it once, not as extreme as it is now, but we've lived through the shock of, you know, sudden duty changes. You know, so...
Actually, in that moment, I remember talking with the chairman of the factory in China that we're working with. And we're having a conversation over breakfast. And he was asking me, so what do you think about this tariff situation? And when there's a change of office, do you think it might change?
I was naive at the time, was like, there's no way this can last. We're all so globally interconnected. I can't imagine that we're going to put up barriers at this stage. could lead to God only knows what on the global stage. So I was very naive in thinking that it's not going to last and that when we have a new president in town, it'll probably be taken away.
He was actually less optimistic than I was, and fortunately. So in that first round, he kind of talked me into like, why don't we start investigating Vietnam? So we were doing it years in advance of where the market is now.
So that in a way we were lucky, but at the same time we had doubts. We had no idea if we were doing the right thing. I had a lot of reservations about moving out of China when it comes to quality control and internal supply chains within Vietnam and if they would be able to support. I mean, I know we're a tiny brand, but you still have to think of all the little links that go into making it work. And China really has been set up so well
to put together new products. Like around the corner, there's some guy selling batteries and around that corner, there's a metal expert and there's another guy in his garage there making tools. And it kind of comes together so easily. It's really set up for entrepreneurship in a big way. And so was a little bit worried not knowing anything about Vietnam and just just making a decision on a spreadsheet.
He did, he helped us do that research and so we started the move. We actually started the move to Vietnam just before COVID. And that's the thing that I would probably play a little bit differently if I get a reverse time.
Nate (22:51)
So you wouldn't have moved to Vietnam then?
Stjohn Wiles (22:55)
I wouldn't have done it as aggressively as I did because I wouldn't have just shut down China in the process. the reason, because when COVID hit, we couldn't travel to Vietnam. And so now we're building out a new factory facility and we're trying to run quality control on a product that has pressurized gases and much trickier than any product I've ever been involved with to make.
And introducing a third language, we underestimated that. The Chinese and the Vietnamese don't know how to talk to each other either. So all of a sudden, Zoom calls went with one translator to like you know... It's amazing how exponential the confusion became by adding a third language.. It was tough.
Nate (23:44)
Oh, wow. So You've got,
you got a factory in China, you've got a factory in Vietnam, you've got yourself and I guess two translators or three translators on the call. Is that right?
Stjohn Wiles (23:59)
Yeah, you know, and these aren't professional translators. It's usually someone on the team, on either team that can speak a little bit of Chinese or a little bit of English. And so it was a little bit broken and that led to, you know, manufacturing issues that were costly. And so, of course, if we could have reversed time and knowing how to, you know, that COVID was coming, then we could have managed that process a lot better than we did.
Nate (24:32)
Totally. Well, certainly COVID was a difficult thing for anyone to predict, but I mean, just the fact that you were looking at doing this in 2019 puts you, know, six years ahead of most of the folks who are, you know, running around trying to figure it out now.
Stjohn Wiles (24:50)
Yeah, we’re very lucky. If you're trying to get space at our factory, they're getting calls daily, hourly about companies that want to use our facility. There's a huge demand right now for Vietnam.
Nate (25:07)
Interesting. Okay. Well, just the fact that you have spent time face to face with these people is I got to be honest, like that's not something that I hear a lot about with or from, you know, early seven figure, six and seven figure founders. I have worked with plenty of brands that are doing, you know, well into seven figures of revenue and they, have never even visited their suppliers. They're like, yeah, you know, we just place purchase orders on Alibaba and it kind of rocks up. Tell me a little bit about your approach to these relationships and you know, how you got to know these people and you know, why did you go about this the way that you did?
Stjohn Wiles (25:56)
Sure, well...
I don't know if we've discussed this yet, but we are self-funded. And when we were venturing into Bison in the beginning, we were an unknown and we're very speculative opportunity, right? So not every factory is just gonna work with us to build this out. It's going to be tricky. Like I said, it's got pressurized gases in it, lots of small little...
You know, nozzles and things that are not easy to spec out. so, you know, if we were making a very simple product with, you know, a low barrier to entry, then I think you can run it through, place some orders on Alibaba, send them to your logo, stick it on something, sell it, you know, on Amazon, whatever. Like, that's definitely a model that you can play,
but we actually had an invention here and we're trying to get a factory to help us refine the tech out. so I ended up by linking up through a contact of, through an engineer, a contact who recommended like three factories and we approached them. And I chose the factory that I thought needed us the most.
Right? So that we would have their attention when building out the product, knowing that we're probably going to run into some craters that we're going to need to figure out. And if we're not important enough to them, then maybe they wouldn't stick with us through that process. Because it's just too hard, too hard to figure out. So we, I...
I ended up by working with a guy who had a ton of experience, actually had worked with Bic back in the years, a long time back, but also for Panasonic and he was used to small things and he was just getting started with his factory business and we went in there to be like an anchor opportunity for him.
And they've been unbelievably loyal over the years and great partners. And so whether that was just luck and good fortune or if there was some method to the madness of choosing the person who needs you the most rather than the company that you want the most, we took a gamble and yeah, they've repaid us with loyalty in a big way.
And that comes back later in the story when you have big orders to fulfill and they're there for you, to help you with cash flow and the financial side of the business. All of sudden it became doable because you had a lot of trust in the relationship together.
Nate (29:11)
Got it. Okay. Interesting. Yeah, that approach to selecting a partner based on how much they need you is quite counterintuitive. Most people would do it the other way around and think about how much, you know, they need the partner. But it's an interesting way to tackle it, I guess. And I certainly get your point about incentivizing them to be engaged and want to help you. One thing I don't quite understand yet though is what was the incentive for this Chinese factory owner to help you go to Vietnam? Do they also own the facility in Vietnam?
Stjohn Wiles (29:48)
Yeah, they own the facility in Vietnam. Yeah. So they helped source a location. So they're, we're with a very forward, they were very forward in their thinking. And so we're, again, it's good fortune more than our ability at Bison to see global markets and what's happening.
We got you know, a little bit of luck, we did hedge the bets. You know, we had that, you know, we dipped our toes into that facility. I said before, we kind of cut away from China, but it wasn't as simple as that. The one facility was starting to be put together while the other one was still operating. You know, so there was, you know, as minimal downtime as possible.
Nate (30:40)
Yeah. I guess I hear you that, you know, maybe you don't want to take credit for the, you know, foresight of moving out of China, but one lesson we could learn from that is just trusting your partners, you know, like your partners and suppliers and these, some of these strategic relationships that brands have, like these people have often got perspectives on the industry and access to information that you're not going to have.
And there are going to be times when they actually have some really good suggestions. I don't think you should discredit the fact that you did a good job of listening. And a lot of founders, I think, would just tell, tell, tell, and maybe not do as much listening as they should from their supply chain partners.
Stjohn Wiles (31:27)
I guess it depends how closely you get to the manufacturing side and how much that matters, right? But in our side, we were so dependent on a close relationship that you didn't have much of a choice to listen. One of the factors that matters a lot to Bison is that the training of the people that are helping you build it is critical to the quality of the product.
And one of the issues we had in China is there's such a huge migration from where these people lived when they weren't working and where they lived when they were working, right? So they would only be off for a couple weeks a year and go home and they're traveling like 3,000 miles or something to get to the factory. And so every year you lose a certain percentage of those workers and now you have to retrain people. And anytime you retrain people, you're going to get
you're going to get changes in the performance of those, those, where, you know, the output. So there's a huge difference in Vietnam. We're not allowed to, I think it's a 50 kilometer radius. We're not allowed to hire people outside of a 50 kilometer radius of the factory. So everyone goes home in the evening, they hit meals with their family, and then they come back to work the next day. In China, they live,
at the factory, like in a dorm room, you, you're in charge of feeding them, you're in charge of their entertainment, you're their whole life. Wow. but, so, so when we looked at that dynamic, you know, and wanting to have better control over our quality, Vietnam sounded like actually a formula, a way of life that's more conducive to a product like ours reaching the quality levels we wanted, because we can have the same workers all the time.
They're not migrating and then maybe not coming back next year. They have a job, it's near home, much more in line with how we operate in Western society.
Nate (33:38)
Interesting. Interesting. I didn't realize that so many of the workers traveled like that. It reminds me a little bit of, I grew up in Perth, Western Australia, which is a big mining economy. My first job out of university was actually working on a mine site and we would fly up, fly in, fly out or FIFO workers they used to call us. And in fact, both of my brother-in-law still do that and they fly away for six weeks at a time and do their work and then come back home.
I hadn't realized that the Chinese factory workers operated in a similar model.
Stjohn Wiles (34:12)
Very, very much so. And for a product like ours, that can lead to difficulty in the amount of oversight required. So it's like little people. It's like these,
people things, like if you're listening to the factory and they're telling you like these kinds of advantages, they stick with you, It's kind of easy to listen to because it makes sense and you're like, okay, well that'll help us solve that area of the production line and so why not, you know, it makes sense to me. So let's not live with that particular issue forever when we can solve it another way.
Nate (34:54)
Interesting, interesting, okay. Cool, well you've certainly lived through and seen a lot here. I mean, you've been through multiple sort of business models. You have navigated tariffs, you've navigated COVID. I understand that there was a point in time where you ran into some quality issues as well and had to dispose of or deal with,
a very large chunk of inventory that was unsellable. Where do you feel like the business is most financially vulnerable today? What if anything would help you sleep better at night, given where you're at right now?
Stjohn Wiles (35:38)
You know, I guess if I have one major regret, it's that I've tried to self-finance it from the beginning. one of the issues that that leads to is that, you know, eventually, you know, if you think you would like to raise capital, you know, you've now been around for long enough that, you know,
the story's a little bit different than like, you're way beyond needing seed. But meanwhile, it's a handbrake on growth when you don't have the resources to execute all the opportunities you want. So you have to pick and choose your way forward.
Yeah, I...
It would be great if there was a treasure chest in the bank account that we could dip into and just say, know, and just charge down every opportunity that was on our radar. Maybe we could grow twice as fast as we are, you know. And so I think of vulnerability, you know, is probably that we're moving a little bit slower than we should be.
and we could be. so a company with deeper wallets that entered our space would probably be able to knock off a few things faster than us. We are small company, you think you should be able to be nimble and move quickly. But you also wear many hats, and so you're not going to...
you find yourself doing multiple different jobs and as a result that slows you down in areas that you should be speeding up. So I think we've kind of always been a little bit hungry and that's a good thing, it gets you up in the morning. But it can be a handbrake and I'd prefer to release the handbrake.
Nate (37:51)
Man, I so hear you on that and it's, you know, what's bizarre is that you talk to founders who've raised money and they always, or not always, but they often say, I wish I'd bootstrapped. And then you talk to the founders who bootstrapped and they, what if I wish I'd raised money? it's, but I, I, I get it. Like bootstrapping is really, really hard. I remember.
A few years back when I was running my own e-comm business, had a conversation with a guy named Dave, who's actually the founder of Uncommon Goods. Do you know that platform by the way? Yeah, okay.
Stjohn Wiles (38:23)
Yeah, I'm familiar with it. We haven't worked with them, I don't believe.
Nate (38:28)
So we were having a chat with Dave, who's a founder of Uncommon Goods, and he said something to me that I will never forget. We were looking at, we'd had a few years at this point under about, and we were looking at raising money. And you know, we'd bootstrapped to this point and the financials were okay. Like we had some growth, things were going all right. But he said to us, you know what, like the traction and revenue growth I'm seeing here, it's like, it's not mind blowing.
You guys would almost be better off if you actually shut this business down, started a new entity so that you had no history. Because whenever you rock up to an investor and show them, you your financial history, they're going to ask, why hasn't this thing been growing faster than it is? And I was like, oh man, that is so.
Stjohn Wiles (39:13)
They don't realize is that you had to press pause, fix the tech, get the product right, then get the production all sorted out, like all these things that, okay, if you start with cash and you can just get all that right in the beginning and breathe before you have to sell anything, then... But yeah, of course, the grass is always greener on the other side, but I...
I actually never, the thinking that I had in the beginning is I've got the money, I need to make it to the next step. Let's take the next step. And, and because we could waste a lot of time trying to raise money and not succeed. And then we're taking the little bit of capital we've got and we're shooting ourselves in the foot because we're trying to use that capital to bring in capital that has nothing to do with actually selling the business, making the product, putting in a box, whatever. Like, so we just always kind of focused on doing the task at hand to get to the next step.
I do have an appreciation for capital and the power that it can bring. And I just wish maybe that the sales cycle of talking to investors would be a little bit easier for people that haven't really traveled that path. Raising capital is not my forte. It's not something I've spent a lot of time on. It is hard. It is hard for sure. So spending six months on that versus developing the product, it's all your time.
One guarantees you have a product, the other one doesn't. I guess that was, I was trapped by, in my initial thinking by just trying to take the next step, the next step.
Nate (41:05)
Yeah, I hear you. I've lived that reality as well. But here's a perspective I want to run by you. What do you think of this? So having capital is probably going to mean that the business looks better today than without it, right? You probably can achieve more in terms of growth. But the flip side, I would argue, is that the lack of capital is actually better in terms of your growth as a founder.
I think you're going to learn more. You're going to be more resilient. You're going to be more creative. You're going to learn a lot more about an array of different disciplines. And I think your personal development as a founder and CEO is probably accelerated being the bootstrap guy, even if what you achieve with the company and its financials may not be as impressive. Do you think there's any truth to that?
Stjohn Wiles (42:03)
Well, there's definitely truth to that because you learn, you're forced to learn about so many different things, right? And so I guess in a way that that is personal development. You're gaining skills, but you're probably not as good as someone that focuses on digital marketing.
and you're an expert at that. know everything there is to know about it. I know enough to be dangerous and to ask the right questions, I don't operate at all on my own, or at least to a high level on my own. need help in those sorts of areas. But there's no question, yeah, you do learn a ton.
A good friend of mine once told me when he was running his business, was like, it's all too exciting. I'm looking forward to giving boredom a try. And I was like, you know, it...
The story's not over, right? We are working on things internally here that can lead to really awesome results, and we believe in them. And we're having all the right conversations with the right retailers and the right opportunities. And we do have investors that have their eyes on us. And so I do feel like we're doing all the right things that helps you. That definitely helps motivate you to just keep, keep going because I think you will get there. But I don't know at what point are you satisfied?
Nate (43:52)
So true, so true. Tell me where we're gonna wrap up here shortly, but I got one more question for you, which is what is your definition of success in business today? And how has that definition changed over time?
Stjohn Wiles (44:11)
Yeah. I mean, I think when I started, and maybe I was right, I don't know, but things were very money focused, know, like, you know, obviously the more money a business is making, the more value it was delivering and so the more successful it is and, you know, and then, you know,
I don't know if it's mature, but you go through a circle of life where there's purpose behind what you're doing and that kind of starts mattering more. What's the why behind what you're working on, actually? But when you have kids and a family, you can't let go of that element. When you're...
a bootstrapped business, it's very, very difficult to draw a clean line between what happens at home and what happens at work because the opportunity of the business is very much the opportunity of the families and what's on everyone's mind and the stresses of the business. It's easy for them to seep into the house.
Nate (45:11)
Yeah.
Stjohn Wiles (45:30)
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.
Nate (45:34)
I think that's a pretty good answer. I like it. Yeah, it sure is. You've certainly got a different, from what I'm hearing, you've certainly got a different approach and perspective to this now compared to where you started out.
Stjohn Wiles (45:50)
I'm starting to appreciate my early thinking about the importance of money and actually the two do need to be married, right? It's like you need purpose behind what you're doing because otherwise money is like there's never enough. But the money side's important because that's where your personal security comes from. That's where your...
it's the wheels of the planet we live on and so you can't forget it. You can't ignore it.
Nate (46:24)
Especially when you're living in a state like New York.
Stjohn Wiles (46:28)
Anywhere.
Nate (46:30)
Think cheap around here. Yeah. That's true. Anyway, anyway, it's all expensive. I hear you. What would you say have been some of the highlights of running this business so far?
Stjohn Wiles (46:40)
I would break that into two components. There's moments in the product development where you realize that you've cracked a solution for the customer. And you're like, this is awesome. It works. It's got so many unique selling points. We know what to do with this.
This could be a game changer. So, it's hugely exciting moment when you come up with a solution to a problem that maybe not everyone else is thinking of, but you are and you've cracked something. Such a special moment. Because the world is your oyster in your mind. You can do anything. But then there's also those moments where you have a huge sales day, like some huge opportunity breaks.
And you don't know when you wake up in the morning that that's gonna happen. Right? And like one of the brands that actually before we put Bison together, I put together a health brand and I was trying to, and so we introduced like acupressure mats to the US market, but there was no IP. It was totally one of those Alabama, the Alabama moments where you could basically put your brand on something. We're just the first ones to do it. And Dr. Oz put us on his show and
and we gave one to the audience, you know, and I didn't even know who Dr. Oz was. I didn't know, I didn't watch his shows. I had no clue. was just like, you know, this channel called us. was like, sure, we can give away some free mats, no problem. If that means we're on TV, we like it. Anyway, at that point, our business was run off a Skype phone, that's it. Like one number. One computer. And so when Dr. Oz,
did his number on that product. Every time the phone rang, it would open a new pop-up window for the phone call. Right? yeah. And I would get like three phone calls a day. So it wasn't a big deal. was not a... This was not like a systematic problem of the business that needed solving because we had so few phone calls that Skype was a perfectly adequate solution.
Nate (49:05)
Until you're on Dr. Oz I gather.
Stjohn Wiles (49:09)
And so I didn't know how big Dr. Oz was. I kind of thought maybe I'd heard of him, so it was worth giving some free product for. And I was just drafting an email and my computer just lit up. It was like every second about 10 windows were popping up computer screen just looked like fireworks. And I was like, what the hell? I thought there was a virus in my computer or something. And then I went into our website and you sell like quarter million dollars in a day through your website or something like that. It was just insane, insane exposure. So like moments like that are so fun. They're so...
fleeting, but they're so fun to live through. But I think the moment that it competes against the moment of actually inventing the airliner and when we crack that solution. So anyway, there's definitely some fun moments in the path and there'll be more fun moments to come and you kind of don't know when they're going to strike.
Nate (50:31)
I really appreciate you jumping on today. You've certainly influenced and changed the way I think about partnerships and supply chain and relationships. And I think some of your perspectives on, you your relationships with your suppliers, listening to your suppliers and the evolution that you've been on as an individual and business owner are fascinating and
frankly, very inspiring as well. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing this story with me today. If folks are interested in learning a little bit more about you or the business and what you're up to, where should they go?
Stjohn Wiles (51:16)
Well, I think if I could point people to our website, thebisoncompany.com, there you find out about our products. If you're trying to reach me personally, you can always just email me. If you put a message into the customer service, it'll get to me. It's not a problem. We're a small enough company that you can reach me fairly easily if you need to.
Go to the website, you'll learn what we're doing, why we're doing it.
Nate (51:48)
Cool, I'll include the link below as well as a couple of others to your LinkedIn and so forth, in case people wanna check you out online. But yeah, thank you again for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show and wish you the best of luck.
Stjohn Wiles (52:02)
Thanks, Nate. And I definitely wish you the best of luck with the podcast. And yeah, let's hope the future is bright for all of us.
Nate (52:13)
Cheers to that. Thanks again.
Stjohn Wiles (52:14)
All right, Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Take care.
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